MANDY TURNER - THE CHAT (raw transcript)

Louisa V  4:05  
Mandy Turner, a very warm welcome to the cyber security cafe. 

Mandy Turner  4:10  
Thanks, Louisa. It's really good to talk to you. 

Louisa V  4:13  
We're so excited. You could join us in the cafe. You are all sets info security excellence professional of the year this year. And so big congratulations there. And following on from the 2018 winner that was Troy hunt. So it's fantastic to see your name up there where it belongs. 

Mandy Turner  4:33  
Yeah, it was very cool.

Louisa V  4:35  
That was exciting. We need to collect the award Mandy? 

Mandy Turner  4:39  
No, of course not. I don't do that. If someone says I'm getting an award, I don't go to the conferences. I sent a video of my cat instead to talk about cybercrime.

Louisa V  4:51  
Well, you are such a positive presence on social media, Mandy and Beverley and I love seeing your inspiring posts every day. And so thank you for those. They really motivate people and just encourage that positivity which is which is so great. 

I would love to start by asking you how you landed in cyber security. 

Mandy Turner  5:11  
Okay, well, it's a very convoluted story really because I, there was no intention. It wasn't an intentional thing to do. I actually my first qualification is I have a degree in music performance and I was a musician and taught music to children had learning difficulties for ages. So going into cyber wasn't really, I think, I don't have any degrees about cyber. But I worked for the Australian Government for a long time and kind of fell into roles in IT security and fraud prevention, digital forensics, and then cybercrime intelligence. And I really like computers and technology and have done since I was really little. My uncle worked for IBM, a very long time ago, and I remember the old punch cards and things he had which intrigued me and Imake robots out of Lego when I was a kid, and I still do, but now I have a Raspberry Pi to make them work. So I just really like technology and it's something I can do and get paid for. So it works for me.

Louisa V  6:11  
That's wonderful. So it's it's your, I guess, your fascination and curiosity around the technology that drives you to sort of stay in cyber security. Are there other elements of it that you that keep you here in this industry?

Mandy Turner  6:25  
Well, number one, I get paid for it. So if you're going to get paid for something, you know, it's an easy way of getting money lately, but I believe that the future is digital, and my interest and more about cyber comic contravention.So if crime is now going to a landscape that is digital, we need to work together to stop cyber crime. So the more people that are aware of what's happening in the digital landscape, and how criminals are using modern technology to commit crimes, the better so if we have ability to help people in these without in a professional wayspaces or a volunteer work spaces, or at home or with people, we know, we are hardening our community against the threat of cyber crime. 

Louisa V  7:07  
Yeah, that's a really great point. And and it's clear that your passion for cyber crime is strong, because I understand you are actually writing a book about cyber crime. Is that right? 

Mandy Turner  7:18  
Yes, yes, I am. I've been researching it for a couple of years.I don't really I wasn't really intending to write a book. It was because I was researching for my own benefit, which is often what I do. And then I realized the things I'm seeing, maybe should be collated for other people. So I'm working on a book on that and it's going to be talking about demystifying cybercrime. What I see a lot of is media talking about hackers, and they show pictures of hoodies and talk about dark web and deep web and scare people. What we really need to do is show the normality of it that it's just crime just in a different space, the history of it because cybercrime goes back a longWay before the word was even coined, and to show people that it's not really a modern thing, it's using technology to do something bad. But it's just crime and how do we protect ourselves from crime? So I want to demystify it all for people.

Louisa V  8:17  
That would be great. I think we definitely need more of that. And as you said, kind of not not scaring people, but giving them the knowledge to understand it. It's absolutely critical. I just wanted to go back to that point, you mentioned you had a look at the history of cybercrime and haven't got any examples you could share without giving away your book before its launch for anything you can share with us.

Mandy Turner  8:40  
Well, yes, there was some when my Connie was showing how you can transmit messages. He was actually hacked because someone wanted to prove he was actually faking, they hacked him. So that was a very, very long time ago when that happened. It was a 19th centurySo that would be cyber crime. It's just that we didn't call it hacking or cyber crime in those days. So Marconi suffered from the first hacker really, and, and then if we look back in the 1970s, there was a Trojan horse created in 1975. So it goes back away. 

Louisa V  9:20  
Yeah, absolutely. And I was actually looking at some research on our previous guest, Dr. Jessica Barker had done into the word cyber Yes. And its origins. And that was really fascinating. Because she's kind of traced it back to ancient Greece, and then to the Romans. And then in the 40s, there was a word cyber, Netflix, which was at content control, dedication. So yeah, I think we often perceive that cyber is a new word, when in fact, it's, it's been around for a while. So and it's interesting to hear that that cyber crime has also been been around for much longer than we might have thought. 

Mandy Turner  9:58  
Yeah, and I think it's important We demystify it all because if people are scared as you just say cyber, they start getting scared. I think it's all technical. It's something we can't understand. We need to make it very simple. So people protect their houses by locking their doors. We need to teach people that cyber crime is no different. You just need to lock your digital doors as it were. To protect yourself from cybercrime. We need to demystify it, make it normal, make people understand, raise awareness and change culture. 

Louisa V  10:25  
Yeah, absolutely agree with that. And I also think, you know, I did a little bit of research into this and humans have been able to understand physical risk for millions of years, you know, we we have that idea of how to protect ourselves physically. So it's being able to translate that into the, into the virtual into the cyber world, and I think then people will be much better prepared. 

Mandy Turner  10:50  
For sure. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So my aim for this book now there's a non NI Rama which is November Novel Writing Month and you write X amount of words today. Yeah. So it's supposed to be about a novel that I am going to be one of the nanogram Romo rebels, and use this time to actually work on the first draft of my book. 

Louisa V  11:12  
Fabulous. Well, I personally cannot wait to read this book. I know it's going to be extremely well researched, written with passion. And yeah, I look forward to it's it's really so we're looking at next year or 

Mandy Turner  11:26  
Yeah, I would say, yeah, I'll Self Publish. If I decide to publish if I don't decide to publish. I'll put it on a PDF and send it to you. But yet, probably early next year. 

Louisa V  11:35  
Wonderful. Look forward to that. Now, I would love to move on to where you are at today in terms of I guess a little bit about your your day job, what you can share what you're doing today, and then we'll move on to your volunteer work because there's a lot of that I would like to talk about as well. But let's start with your day job, Mandy. 

Mandy Turner  11:54  
Okay, well, I recently left the government and I work for a university. I amThe manager of the Cyber Security Operations Center in a university in Queensland. And I have an amazing team that support me to harden the constituents we have here against cyber crime and cyber security. I find it really challenging because the cohort that we are protecting, it's very, very diverse. And its really interesting job. And what are they? What can you share with us some of the challenges that diverse cohort presents in terms of the work that you do every day? Is it? Yeah, I'll let you talk to that in your own words. We will, because as university we have students to start with and we can't necessarily control what they do. Yeah, they have access to networks. We can't. We don't have absolute control. We can't tell them that. You need to abide by these robot by that they basically going to do what students are going to do. We also have to support the fact that universities share information. That's the whole idea of sharing And learning, that is a challenge if you're trying to protect security of information because we want to lock things down, but a teaching area wants to share. So you've got that kind of idea as well. And then University also has the professional that, that think one way about policies and things and they want to abide by certain policy, but that policy may not actually work operationally, for people who are working in a more academic field. So it's balancing the whole business needs, with your constituents what they need to do with the actual security requirements. So each area has a different requirement and a different need and different security risk. So that's what makes it extremely challenging and really, really rewarding to work. 

Louisa V  13:47  
Yeah, yeah, I think for those people that have not worked either with or within universities in the in a security context, they may be don't have that appreciation fact, which is quite how complex that is environment is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and I just wanted to go back to the the students there and I guess their, their attitudes, but more specifically, whether you think that is a generational view, or whether that is just, I guess, their state of mind and students, and you have a view on that. Um,

Mandy Turner  14:24  
look, it wouldn't be all of them. I can't generalize. But I was at the bus stop few weeks ago and a young lady who was obviously a student here, had a post it note on her laptop with her user ID and password on it. So obviously, it makes it easier for her. But that is a pretty scary thing for security. I don't know if it's general general thing with with the generation I don't know if it's a student thing. I haven't really looked into the psychology of it, but maybe it's just that they have been brought up with the internet. That's That's what they know. They have maybe a false sense of security with it. Or maybe they just so busy because students these days are expected to work and study. They may be so busy that they don't have time to think about the security aspect. I don't really know. But it certainly is a concern with that cohort.

Louisa V  15:17  
Yeah, I think it definitely sounds like I'm sure there is someone out there that's maybe done some research that we can tap into, but I guess I'm just curious about when those as we call them, digital natives come into the workforce. What what is it we can expect?

Mandy Turner  15:32  
So, actually, I there was a great talk by Jess Williams. I think she works at a group now. She spoke recently at one of the meetings about her generation, which I think is Jess said now I'm not sure but she was talking about the because she is a child of the internet basically. And just talking about the the way they they work and how they think about technology, and they might catch up with her and find out what she thinks about the security


Louisa V  16:01  
Yeah, that would be great. So back to your your team Mandy, in the security operations center that you run other any myths you want to bust for us about the humans who work in those kind of centers and what they what it takes to work in that environment. And yeah, it would be great to get your take on that. Well, one

Mandy Turner  16:22  
of the things I have found and I have spoken to people who who want to get into security and they go on, but I'm not a coder. And I'll explain to them that, you know, there's developers who are coders, a security environment is more about the security and investigation and finding out why things happen. You don't have to be sitting there. As a coder with you. You can have soft drink and you nurture on to work in a cyber security space. You have to have a natural curiosity. You have to have the want to look further into things and you have to have an understanding of human nature because you have to work out why did someone click a link or Why isn't awareness working because there's no fully technical solution for cyber security. So the people that work in a cyber security space, they may not be people that are highly technical. They may be highly technical. They articulate they are expected to be able to present on awareness things says they not inarticulate people who sit on chat forums. And I have noticed that there is this really weird perception that that's the kind of people that work in a cyber security operations center. And they're not they're extremely intelligent, strangely articulate. They may code or they may not code it doesn't matter. And they have a an insatiable curiosity as to why people get caught by cybercrime. How cyber attacks happen, and look further into how to get resolution and mitigation.

Louisa V  17:54  
What do you think driving that perception around you know what, what it takes to work in a security embraces entered in that description you mentioned earlier around, you know, kind of soft drink and in the nerd t shirt, what, what's driving that?

Mandy Turner  18:09  
these cartoons, cartoons for years of that kind of thing. And TV shows that use it for satire or humor. It's, I think it's just the perceptions of people that don't really understand or don't really work in this environment. That's what they believe we all are my do I wear conference t shirts on Fridays, so I could be one of those people, myself, and my code, and I'm a gamer, so Frankly, I'm a stereotype. But I think people outside of it, that's what they see. So they go over your cyber, therefore, you're this type of person. I have once been told, but actually more than once been told by someone or you're really articulate, I can't believe you work in cyber. So that's kind of weird, because everyone I've worked with in cyber are all extremely articulate people. So that perception that stereotype is driven from something and I think it's more about how it's shown on TV and how it's shining. books or, you know, public media?

Louisa V  19:03  
Yeah, yep. I agree with that i had a, I've had similar experiences where I have quite often found myself talking to a taxi driver about what I do. And they kind of look at me and say, You don't look like you work in cyber security. And you kind of go Well, yeah, that, you know, to your point, it's, it's that stereotype. And I guess it's, you know, it's down to us working in the industry today to bust those myths and stereotypes and kind of get out there and share what it is we do and who we are. So being part of the podcast is part of that. So thank you, Mandy. And now I would like to move on to a subject that I know is extremely close to your heart. And that is all the volunteer work that you do. Choose just it's it's amazing. The work you do, Mandy, and we're so lucky to have you in this industry. But I'd like to start with why volunteer work is so important to you, if you wouldn't mind

Mandy Turner  20:00  
Okay, well,

there's a reason that I volunteer that drives me to volunteer. And that's because about 20 odd years ago now I escaped domestic violence situation. And I was helped by people who volunteer. And I wanted to give back but I can't give back to that community because it hurts me too much to to work there. So I feel a little cowardly in that, that I can't actually help that community. But what I can do is use the skills I do have to volunteer in the community in in the way I can, which is to promote cybercrime awareness and support people in the industry.

Louisa V  20:37  
Thank you for sharing that story,

Mandy, and can I just say, I don't think it's cowardly at all. And the fact that you're, you're open and talking about that experiences is shows a great deal of courage and then for you to go and use that experience to help others in a different way is just incredible. So thank you for that and maybe we could talk a little bit about what you do in the cyber security community. I know your branch executive at the Brisbane branch of the Australian Information Security Association. And so what does that entail? And what kind of culture are you driving?

Mandy Turner  21:15  
Well, I've been I've been a volunteer at AISA for quite some time and to give about two in 2016, I think it was. And I tried to promote a culture of of real diversity and support in our local area. So when I talk about diversity, I don't talk about gender. I'm talking about true diversity of everything, culture, background skills, knowledge, age, everything, and I wanted local members to feel supported, to feel that they are in a safe area. That any presentations we do cater to all different people and to promote People who may want to get into presentations but don't feel that they have the experience to actually come and present to to our group, so that they can get an idea of how to present there in front of a friendly group who will be supportive, and for them to gain confidence. So my aim has always been to to help change culture of people in information security, and help make them a stronger, more supportive unit.

Louisa V  22:25  
And how do you think we're doing today? Mandy, just in general about I guess, how welcoming is the cyber security culture to outsiders today, and what more can we do about that? I'd love to get your thoughts on that.

Mandy Turner  22:42  
I think it is improving. But there's one thing that I find is, is still an issue. And it's driven by some people that believe they're a legend, I think, where they'll look down on people inside they're not tech. They're not technical enough tech. And that worries Me, but I think we're doing a lot to to change things. So Jackie, let's start with the stolen women security network. I know Jackie Can I also works a lot with women in technology. So there's people looking about breaking the barriers for women, which is excellent. I think we're also making a cyber career more more available and accessible to all sorts of people. I was reading a blog post by a blind developer recently and it just intrigued me because I don't know how he does it. That I think we're becoming more accessible because we're awareness is being raised by more people. So we're learning to be more welcoming and and being less discriminatory of our own people. I think so I believe we are getting better at this.

Louisa V  23:51  

I agree. Now the emphasis is the great work that you're also doing with the with the branch of Brisbane to make sure that those kinds of of environments are welcoming and inclusive. And that's fantastic. So thank you for doing that. I also wanted to talk about the fact that you've established cyber century mentoring. And if you could tell us a little bit about what that is what that means to you. And also feel free to share any help that you might need with that organization.

Mandy Turner  24:23  
Okay, well, so the history of those, it goes back, like last year, when a colleague and friend of mine, Lana tosic from New Zealand, and I were discussing that there needs to be some kind of initiative to help people find mentors and to help support mentors in the information security industry. And that's, that's whether you're a security person, a coder, a developer working cybercrime, working intelligence work in place, whatever, or you're a student that want to work there or you want to change careers, and we were saying it's difficult to find good mentors, and it's difficult for people to approach someone to ask me a mentor. So we decided we work out Something to help that. So establish the this association. And what we do is people we ask for interest from people who wish to be mentors and we just have a look at what they do and find out about their reputation that community, if we feel that they satisfactory will add them to our database as mentors, and then people who wish to be mentored will approach us and we will map them up to that mentor and do an email introduction. We also monitor things so if the person who's been mentor doesn't feel it's working or the person doing mentoring feels isn't working, we can intervene and go look for someone else that that may be better suited for this situation. And we also look at providing support to the people being meant toward as well like this is what you should expect from the mentoring and we support the mentors with providing information on on how they can support the people they mentor and also support themselves

Louisa V  25:51  
and what do you think it takes to be a good mentor? I am I know you know a lot of people will kind of afraid conversation all year I mentor people. What does That mean to actually be an effective mentor,

Mandy Turner  26:02  
I think you need to be flexible, because each situation is different. So you can't go a mentor is this, this and this because it depends on what the person needs. So the first thing you need to do is be very adaptable. You need to also really listen so you can understand what the person is wanting. Because sometimes people will say they want something, but that isn't really what they need as well. So you need to be able to look at what they're actually saying and what it actually means. So you need to be a very good listener. And you also need to be someone who can look at it the mentoring situation almost subjectively, not objectively because you need to distance yourself from it. Because it's not about you as a mentor. It's about the person you're looking after. And you also have to assess what is it they really need? Do they want to be networks or do they want to meet people? Is it that they want to develop themselves, their behaviors? Is it that they want to learn more skills is it that they're looking to understand how their skills transfer to work? Place. So you have to look at all those things as well. So I think the prime part of being a mentor is being very, very adaptable to the situation you're in.

Louisa V  27:08  
That's great advice. Mandy, thank you for that, because I think some people sort of get into mentoring because they think they should. But I think it's also important that they, you know, recognize what, what's required of them and assess whether that is the right thing for them as well. And I think some people can be great coaches, versus doing doing mentoring. So I've seen some fantastic coaches out there in the industry. And so yeah, and there is, I guess a difference in that skill set as well.

Mandy Turner  27:36  
Yeah, I believe there is because mentoring to me is a more protective situation. It's more you're looking after your protege you're helping them in this job, you're helping them look for jobs, you're you're supporting them, they go to you, you know, because something about the industry's upset them or they don't feel that they have the confidence or they also share their their successes with you whereas the code is more about what can you do? How do we apply it? How do we make it better? But a mentor is more a personal thing. So while you you will remain kind of outside of it, so you don't get too involved yourself. You're actually supporting them on more of a personal level as well.

Louisa V  28:16  
Yeah, that's a really good good point and good clarification as well.

So Mandy, you are also a justice of the peace. I'm sorry. I'd love to hear more about how that came about and what made you do that and what it entails as well.

Mandy Turner  28:33  
Okay, so my husband had to get the qualifications for his workplace and because I have insatiable curiosity and always need to learn, I decided I was going to sign up to be just as a piece so I signed up and paid for the online training myself and set the exam and registered as just as the pace. So justice of the peace in Queensland, mainly is used to sign

copies or two signs, tactics and things like that. They also can issue warrants if the police are from too. So they have quite a responsibility in the community.

Louisa V  29:12  
That's great. So being a justice of the peace, you're also able to contribute to the community in that way, which is, which is fantastic. And I guess I'm also looking after the integrity of information we might say, Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Which which we know definitely links back to to the cyber security world.

I would also love to hear because I know that you have an opinion on this around cyber security recruiting, in terms of the skill shortage, whether we've got one or we haven't. So yeah, what's your what's your view on that one?

Mandy Turner  29:53  
Okay, so this is probably controversial to a lot of people but I don't believe we necessarily have a cyber skills shortage. I think there's an issue we, how we recruit, and what we're looking for when we advertise. So the position I mean at the moment, for example, I really love the job and I seem to be doing okay my team haven't beaten it on me yet. But the job advert itself, last two certifications that I do not have. So, I have seen a lot of adverts on whether it's in the newspaper online, where we're recruiters, so it's recruiting firms, and maybe HR areas, I don't know who dictate these, but they asked for so many skills that you'd have to be like 180 to have done at all. They're asking for the impossible. They're asking for unicorns, they're also expecting you to have so many certifications that you'd have to be a millionaire to afford. So I think they need to be looking at behaviors. When you're in a team you can be taught certain things, but it's really hard to change a person's innate behavior. So what We're looking for people that that can understand things, people that are adaptable people who are articulate people who are curious about their environment and want to help. They are that's ideal characteristics of a person that working out in our industry. So instead of going, we're looking for people that can code every single languages ever been invented and has every certification from every industry, and has been a developer for 20 years and worked on security for 30. And, you know, it should be looking at behaviors. Because you can teach things and every job you go to, there's going to be new systems that you've never used before. If you have the ability to transfer your knowledge to that, that is success. So there has been many studies where it says that women are less likely to apply for a job where they can't take even if one box can be tick, they won't apply. My husband also will not if he feels he he misses just one thing out of a list of 80 he will not apply because you're going to know I can do that. So I think people when when recruiting advertisement have written need to think about that and stop asking for ridiculous impossible things and start thinking about the type of people they want to work there. What kind of skills do they want them to bring to the job? Do they want them to be able to write well? Do they want them yet to speak? Well, they want them to be able to understand information fast, what is it they want from the person, the other knowledge will come? But they need to actually get the right people for the jobs and and need to ask them for transferable skills, not expect them to have every certification and degrees and things like that.

Louisa V  32:38  
Yeah, and I'm wondering, you know, that there was some research done by security in depth recently in Australia, I think they had about 1800 respondents and and of those 63% had no dedicated cyber security specialists on staff. And so you know, I'm wondering if when they do Finally get that budget to go and hire someone to look after their cyber security. They've got that over the line. Are they just asking for everything because they've literally got one headcount. So, you know, that wondering if that could be driving it.

Mandy Turner  33:14  
They could also, I guess, be that lack of understanding from an HR sort of perspective as to what I saw your T professional needs to have.

Louisa V  33:24  
But also we've heard I don't know if you think this is still happening, but we're also as cybersecurity professionals writing job descriptions in our own image, lifting the skills we have and asserts we have, do you think that's still happening?

Mandy Turner  33:36  
I do. I do. Think that's happening. Absolutely.

It's it's tightly. It's like a unconscious bias in a way. But I do think what's happening instead of looking at what is the job, what does the job need? That just cleaning themselves? So yes, I do think that's happening still.

Louisa V  33:56  
Yeah, so there's a few areas to be worked that space.

And I guess if if we look to the future, and not just in terms of recruiting and the skills that we need, but where do you see us in as far ahead as you care to predict? Where do you see us in the future? And what do you think will will look like as an industry? 

Mandy Turner  34:22  
I think that unless we self emplode with our technology, that that things will be further technologically driven. We have Internet of Things. everything is interconnected. I wanted to play my my switch console the other night, and I had to upgrade the console family and upgrade my game firmware, because everything's moving so fast. So I think in the future, that there's going to be so many things driven by technology. I mean, it's bad enough now when you go to a checkout and the automatic cash register isn't working because of whatever reason and people have trouble working at change, because they start relying on technology. I think people are going to become even more reliant on technology, there's going to be more emphasis on crime driven by technology. And I think it's going to be both an exciting and a scary world. 

Louisa V  35:14  
And do you think we've passed the point of no return when it comes to? disconnecting? We often hear that as a I'm talking more specifically around, I have heard it said, and I've got a quote my, my, my dad doesn't use the internet. He's like, well, if I'm not on the internet, and I can't, I can't experience any, any bad stuff. Which which I think in hindsight, you know, he also has to rely on my mom who is on the internet. And then there was also the example of was listening to smashing security couple of weeks back and Jack fromo darknet diaries covered a story about ransomware heating a state in the US And they actually just unplugged in response to that ransomware. Is that going to be an option in the future? 

Mandy Turner  36:07  
Yeah, I'm not sure. Because I think that everything is going to be so connected, that that isn't something that can be done. And my husband and I sometimes joke that we're going to become hermits and go and live in a cave. But everything is so connected now. Everything is just, I don't think there is there will be a way that we can just unplug. Yeah, and I guess then how our profession aligns to that. And whether or not there is a skill shortage today.

Louisa V  36:34  
But when we look to the future and what will need to be doing, do we should we be focusing our efforts on enabling people outside of cyber security, to build security into their everyday lives in some way? Or should we be focusing on bringing more professionals into the industry? Yeah, I think because everything is digital. Everyone has to use it.

Mandy Turner  37:00  
I believe that we should be supporting everyone. I was talking to one of my team this morning about my views on, we should be teaching kids from infancy about good cyber health, online use and not over sharing, just as we do from infancy about how we cross the road and how we eat and how we wipe our hands. Because the future is going to be digital. And we need to ensure that we've enabled our people in generations to come to us online and technology safely. So it's not just about focusing on a certain lump of people who are really into tech, but it's focusing on the whole generations to come and how they can be better supported using technology.

Louisa V  37:41  
Yeah, and I think that's the only way we're going to be ready for that. That future as well is just if if everybody has some knowledge, to be able to, to make decisions about their online risk and what they do and what they share what they don't share. how they go about their business securely, then, yeah, we're going to be busy enough with the cyber security industry. I think that's the minimum baseline, we're going to need to have to support that fully interconnected future.

Mandy Turner  38:15  

Louisa V  38:15  
So, Mandy, are there any other call outs, you want to share with the cyber security community, anything, we need to be doing more of anything, we need to do less or for what we should keep doing?

Mandy Turner  38:25  
I think we should be collaborating more. I know that there's issues with collaboration through could be legislation that stops it or policies in businesses, but where we can share I believe we should. One of the things I do on my Twitter account, for example, is share cybercrime information, whether it's something that I think that we should be doing or whether I'm sharing it from someone else. I use my Twitter account a lot for cyber crime awareness. I believe we should be collaborating. I know that my colleagues over at assert do a lot of that they actually have public blog where they talk about security issue and how it applies to people. So anyone can say that they don't have to be members. And I know that the work that the certainly government's doing with the joint cyber security centers, they're encouraging more industry collaboration. But I think collaboration needs to be done both on a localized level, and further, further afield because criminals collaborate with far more ease than we do. So if we ever want to get anywhere in this fight, we need to collaborate


Louisa V  39:26  
That's a great shout out Mandy, and yeah, I couldn't agree more about that. There's been some great work done, as you mentioned, the JCS sees and as you mentioned, the great work also does but yeah, we definitely, definitely need more of that. Mandy, I'm so sad that our chats already come to coming to an end. And how can people follow you? You mentioned your Twitter account, you're pretty active on there. How do we find you on Twitter?

Mandy Turner  39:53  
Yes, I'm in empressbat on Twitter.

Louisa V  39:56  
Wonderful. That one's easy to find

Mandy Turner  40:00  
Look, so Louisa, who is herself on Twitter, and find me as one of her followers

Louisa V  40:05  
love that?

And what about any other ways to get in touch? Do you? Are you one of those people that you won't accept LinkedIn from people you know? Or are you happy to accept

Mandy Turner  40:14  
on LinkedIn I'm happy is I will accept people if I have done a check on them, I'll have a look at open source to see what if they are who they say they are. Also, if they can recommend it from somebody else. So I'm just Amanda Jane, on LinkedIn with a little flower and XY name to try and stop bots, contacting

love, but

Louisa V  40:35  
I know im always going to get a positive post where I see that see your name. And so keep up the awesome work with that, Mandy, it's been an absolute joy chatting to you. Thank you so much for joining us in the cybersecurity cafe. And hopefully once you publish your book, we would love to get you back in and hear more about

Mandy Turner  40:53  

Absolutely, Louisa. Well, thanks for Thanks for having me. It was great talking to you. Thanks, Mandy. Bye bye Hi,



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